I'm glad you enjoyed it. Conversations like most of the ones I have here (and the one we had about 'belief') are a good part of why I blog. One meets some very interesting people.
As I touched on in the article (and believe to be true), dogs are the single example of *mutual* domestication. We've domesticated many different animals, but only dogs seem to have domesticated us back. They evolved to be adorable to us, and they seem one of the only animals that *want* eye-contact with us (wolves, for example, consider it aggressive, and people who work with wolves learn to be very careful about it).
Sounds like Princess Muttpup has you wrapped around her dew claw. I know the feeling!
I think you are too quick to say that dogs don't ponder the meaning of life. We don't really have any information either way so it is not justified to dismiss the idea. We have a long history of discounting animal abilities: Descartes thought they were all just clockwork automata; we used to think that animals couldn't count or use tools. I think there are a lot more abilities that we just don’t know enough to declare on yet.
My dog certainly seems to understand love and has opinions when she does not get enough of it. Is that not meaning? It’s not exactly the way I might think about it but I expect there are factory workers in Yorkshire who think about it differently too.
Love, of course, and the desire for love, are emotions. Pondering the meaning of life requires abstraction along with a desire and expectation that there be "meaning" to life (a fruitless human trait). My observation of dogs is that they're Zen-like, they live in the moment, and they take life as it comes pretty much without question. I envy their ability to just be.
A lot of the literature I've seen compares them to two-year-old children, which seems accurate to me. Strong likes and dislikes, a delight in play, a capacity for joy, a heart full of love, and head full of curiosity.
I’m actually doing a class on philosophy at the moment and our current book is about the meaning of life. They agree with you that dogs don’t understand meaning. I’m not convinced though and will do some extracurricular reading.
I saw a documentary on wolves a couple of years ago that showed a pack of wolves where the wolves had decided to relocate from their winter home to their summer home. After a few miles, one of the wolves was missing so another wolf went back to find him while the others continued. They all met up again at a rest point.
I think they have sophisticated behaviours that we don’t understand yet. We approach them with an assumption that they don’t have certain skills until we are able to prove otherwise. I think that’s backwards. Dogs may not be as sophisticated as us but I think there is something going on in there.
I realise that I am probably the only one who believes this but I am curious enough to do some research now.
Oh, thanks! It has long been true that I love all dogs more than I like most people.
A common theory is that they descended from the timider wolves who, being timid, got a lesser share of food, so they started foraging in human middens. From that grew a mutually beneficial relationship. Dogs evolved to both be incredibly loveable and to love humans (wolves do not; at all). No other animal is as interactive with humans as dogs are. Best friends for tens of thousands of years. Sleep in our beds. A highly evolved relationship.
And while dogs aren't the most intelligent animal (corvids and some monkeys can run rings around them), they aren't by any stretch the dumbest. Trained working dogs, especially, are hella impressive.
I think you find in your research that the two-year-old human comparison is apt. Dogs are great with emotion, play, and can learn some immediate nouns and verbs (some dogs have reliably learned hundreds of nouns). They don't seem to be capable of abstraction, though — that's pretty high-level intellectual thought.
That said, my dog Sam seemed to understand the *classes* "ball" and "toy" (whatever isn't a ball is a toy), which is a low-level abstraction. OTOH, during play, she'd reject any other ball (despite my attempts to secretly switch) that wasn't the one we were playing with. I'd switch behind my back and toss her the other one. She'd just watch it fly past, then look at me like, how dumb do you think I am?
Which made clear to me how concretely she saw as distinct what were to me indistinguishable tennis balls (from the same can and with the same amount of use). So, she apparently had rudimentary classification skills, but only rudimentary.
But definitely indulge your curiosity and explore the world of dogs. They are amazing.
It makes me wonder. Are we gods to our pets, or just benevolent (and sometimes baffling) overlords with an endless supply of treats? I don't know about dogs per se, but my parrot probably pondered these questions, and I feel like my unadopted wild squirrel does too, but I do think they’ve cracked the secret to happiness. Live in the moment, trust the ones who feed you, and always be ready for an adventure (or at least a head rub). As for crows, I suspect they know exactly who we are - co-conspirators in their ongoing game of 'who’s really in charge here?
Well, I thought that our seeming magic to them might elevate us, but now that you mention it, it might be that they pity us for being flightless and so slow. Dogs might be wondering just how damn cute they need to be to get more treats!
Squirrels, ha! Have you seen this YouTube channel?
Well, this was when I lived in the Bronx in NYC and those animals were scary.
Anyway, I moved into this canyon in Southern California a few months back (lots of trees and wild animals), and these squirrels are lovely and smart. Thank you for sharing the YT link :)
Yes, I understand the rats in NYC (my birthplace, btw) carry shivs. I lived in SoCal for almost twenty years. Yes, *much* nicer! The wildlife in Minnesota is even more fun. Wild Turkeys, deer, beavers, eagles, sometimes even bears!
How thought provoking, Wyrd. I have three dogs and they each have such different personalities. Their intelligence is amazing, and their ability to connect emotionally is remarkable.
I believe the crows do recognize you. A friend of mine had a crow that befriended him. Although the bird lived outside in nature, he voluntarily became domesticated to be with my friend. They are very intelligent birds.
Let me know if one of them starts following you around. That’s how Charlie Crow started his friendship. It was the funniest thing to see a pick-up truck driving along with a crow riding on the roof! I think it would be really wonderful for you to have your own wild crow friend, Wyrd.
Sure, David. There are other crows in the flock. Of course, you can befriend whichever one you want, but those birds are very smart. Personally, I prefer my crow friends not to be wielding knives in their beaks. It will make an awesome substack writing if you choose to get to know the Knife Slinger.
I'm glad you enjoyed it. Conversations like most of the ones I have here (and the one we had about 'belief') are a good part of why I blog. One meets some very interesting people.
As I touched on in the article (and believe to be true), dogs are the single example of *mutual* domestication. We've domesticated many different animals, but only dogs seem to have domesticated us back. They evolved to be adorable to us, and they seem one of the only animals that *want* eye-contact with us (wolves, for example, consider it aggressive, and people who work with wolves learn to be very careful about it).
Sounds like Princess Muttpup has you wrapped around her dew claw. I know the feeling!
Oh, thank you. Credit it to both my raising and my education. And that I love a good conversation.
I think you are too quick to say that dogs don't ponder the meaning of life. We don't really have any information either way so it is not justified to dismiss the idea. We have a long history of discounting animal abilities: Descartes thought they were all just clockwork automata; we used to think that animals couldn't count or use tools. I think there are a lot more abilities that we just don’t know enough to declare on yet.
My dog certainly seems to understand love and has opinions when she does not get enough of it. Is that not meaning? It’s not exactly the way I might think about it but I expect there are factory workers in Yorkshire who think about it differently too.
Love, of course, and the desire for love, are emotions. Pondering the meaning of life requires abstraction along with a desire and expectation that there be "meaning" to life (a fruitless human trait). My observation of dogs is that they're Zen-like, they live in the moment, and they take life as it comes pretty much without question. I envy their ability to just be.
A lot of the literature I've seen compares them to two-year-old children, which seems accurate to me. Strong likes and dislikes, a delight in play, a capacity for joy, a heart full of love, and head full of curiosity.
What a lovely way to think about it!
I’m actually doing a class on philosophy at the moment and our current book is about the meaning of life. They agree with you that dogs don’t understand meaning. I’m not convinced though and will do some extracurricular reading.
I saw a documentary on wolves a couple of years ago that showed a pack of wolves where the wolves had decided to relocate from their winter home to their summer home. After a few miles, one of the wolves was missing so another wolf went back to find him while the others continued. They all met up again at a rest point.
I think they have sophisticated behaviours that we don’t understand yet. We approach them with an assumption that they don’t have certain skills until we are able to prove otherwise. I think that’s backwards. Dogs may not be as sophisticated as us but I think there is something going on in there.
I realise that I am probably the only one who believes this but I am curious enough to do some research now.
Oh, thanks! It has long been true that I love all dogs more than I like most people.
A common theory is that they descended from the timider wolves who, being timid, got a lesser share of food, so they started foraging in human middens. From that grew a mutually beneficial relationship. Dogs evolved to both be incredibly loveable and to love humans (wolves do not; at all). No other animal is as interactive with humans as dogs are. Best friends for tens of thousands of years. Sleep in our beds. A highly evolved relationship.
And while dogs aren't the most intelligent animal (corvids and some monkeys can run rings around them), they aren't by any stretch the dumbest. Trained working dogs, especially, are hella impressive.
I think you find in your research that the two-year-old human comparison is apt. Dogs are great with emotion, play, and can learn some immediate nouns and verbs (some dogs have reliably learned hundreds of nouns). They don't seem to be capable of abstraction, though — that's pretty high-level intellectual thought.
That said, my dog Sam seemed to understand the *classes* "ball" and "toy" (whatever isn't a ball is a toy), which is a low-level abstraction. OTOH, during play, she'd reject any other ball (despite my attempts to secretly switch) that wasn't the one we were playing with. I'd switch behind my back and toss her the other one. She'd just watch it fly past, then look at me like, how dumb do you think I am?
Which made clear to me how concretely she saw as distinct what were to me indistinguishable tennis balls (from the same can and with the same amount of use). So, she apparently had rudimentary classification skills, but only rudimentary.
But definitely indulge your curiosity and explore the world of dogs. They are amazing.
This was such a fun read Wyrd!
It makes me wonder. Are we gods to our pets, or just benevolent (and sometimes baffling) overlords with an endless supply of treats? I don't know about dogs per se, but my parrot probably pondered these questions, and I feel like my unadopted wild squirrel does too, but I do think they’ve cracked the secret to happiness. Live in the moment, trust the ones who feed you, and always be ready for an adventure (or at least a head rub). As for crows, I suspect they know exactly who we are - co-conspirators in their ongoing game of 'who’s really in charge here?
I hope you are having a good week :)
Well, I thought that our seeming magic to them might elevate us, but now that you mention it, it might be that they pity us for being flightless and so slow. Dogs might be wondering just how damn cute they need to be to get more treats!
Squirrels, ha! Have you seen this YouTube channel?
https://youtu.be/fG_1-LB33Mg?si=APECjEh9UjorLQUl
One of my favorites!
Hey Wyrd
I have seen this one :)
I used to be deathly afraid of squirrels.
Well, this was when I lived in the Bronx in NYC and those animals were scary.
Anyway, I moved into this canyon in Southern California a few months back (lots of trees and wild animals), and these squirrels are lovely and smart. Thank you for sharing the YT link :)
Yes, I understand the rats in NYC (my birthplace, btw) carry shivs. I lived in SoCal for almost twenty years. Yes, *much* nicer! The wildlife in Minnesota is even more fun. Wild Turkeys, deer, beavers, eagles, sometimes even bears!
no way Wyrd. NYC is the best place on earth. I don’t care what anyone says.
Lived there for 15 years.
SoCal is meh lol
My husband loves it here but it’s not NYC
Happy weekend to you.
Ha! A true New Yorker. 🍎 (Yankees or Mets?)
You also have a great weekend.
Yankees :) - thank you :)
How thought provoking, Wyrd. I have three dogs and they each have such different personalities. Their intelligence is amazing, and their ability to connect emotionally is remarkable.
I believe the crows do recognize you. A friend of mine had a crow that befriended him. Although the bird lived outside in nature, he voluntarily became domesticated to be with my friend. They are very intelligent birds.
Thanks for an interesting post.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. It's something I've wondered about a long time, how our pets see us and feel about us.
Yeah, crows are amazing. Definitely not "bird brains"!
Let me know if one of them starts following you around. That’s how Charlie Crow started his friendship. It was the funniest thing to see a pick-up truck driving along with a crow riding on the roof! I think it would be really wonderful for you to have your own wild crow friend, Wyrd.
The weather is getting nice enough that I’ve been taking walks, so who knows!
Wyrd, I just forwarded you an interesting photo of a crow…. did you receive it?
Yep, sure did!
Please don’t connect with that crow. He looks a bit nasty.
Well, maybe he’s a caring father and just carrying a knife so he can cut up some fruit for his kids?
Sure, David. There are other crows in the flock. Of course, you can befriend whichever one you want, but those birds are very smart. Personally, I prefer my crow friends not to be wielding knives in their beaks. It will make an awesome substack writing if you choose to get to know the Knife Slinger.
Oops! I called you David… you are Wyrd. My apology.