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Wyrd Smythe's avatar

@William of Hammock:

I've been stuck trying to respond. I think in part we've reached a point of differing viewpoints. One example is that I don't see any dissonance in the notion of a concrete example of an abstraction. In software design, a class is an abstraction, but all instances of that class are concrete. If you link "abstraction" and "generalization" with "design" or "blueprint" does the notion of reifying an abstraction make more sense?

Another example is that I think reality does subtract. Up quarks have +2/3 electrical charge, and down quarks have -1/3. Protons are two ups and one down, so +2/3 +2/3 -1/3 = +1. Neutrons are one up and two downs, so +2/3 -1/3 -1/3 = 0. On a larger scale, multiple snowfalls add to the total depth. Multiple thaws subtract from it. Likewise, river heights and rain. In any event, subtracting is just the inverse of adding. You have four apples, I give you three apples, you have seven apples. You have ten apples, you give me three apples, you have seven apples. Apples in motion both times, only distinguished by direction.

I confess to not entirely following you with regard to counting and set theory, so I'm not sure how on point this is, but here's my take:

My guess is that counting is truly ancient, very near the origins of language. Dogs and other animals have been shown to judge the "fairness" (equalness) of food portions. I suspect our ability to identify the cardinality of small groups comes from comparing portions. But our brains can only buffer about seven digits (hence phone numbers), so we "lose count" with larger groups. Hence using bags of pebbles, marks in clay, or knotted strings to keep track of those groups. Zero was just an empty bag, an unmarked tablet, or an unknotted string, so it wasn't obvious it meant anything.

Of course, zero ("vanish" in math speak) turns out to be a big topic. It's necessary as a placeholder for positional notation. One ("unity" in math speak) is likewise huge. It's the basic unit, the first step from nothing to something. All further steps are just more something. Some cultures have "none", "one", "two", "three", "many". Which perhaps speaks to your point that math isn't instinctive, but an abstraction that must be developed or learned. Absolutely. One of the salient aspects of human consciousness is our ability to create abstractions.

Zero (the additive identity) and One (the multiplicative identity) are deep parts of the mathematical fabric. Addition and multiplication are the fundamental operations on numbers. (In fact, it's only addition. Multiplication is serial addition, and exponentiation is serial multiplication. Subtraction is the inverse of addition, division is the inverse of multiplication, and logarithms are the inverse of exponentiation.)

But I don't see how zero and one inhere tradeoffs. What tradeoffs do you mean?

You lost me on how set theory and counting are opposite. The natural (counting) numbers are defined by set theory. True, the cardinality of a set with a single element is one, but {{}} is just the second link in the infinite chain: {}=0, {{}}=1, {{},{{}}}=2, {{},{{}}.{{},{{}}}}=3, etc.

The multiplicative identity isn't involved in addition, so wouldn't be expected to enable it. In a very real sense, if I add two and three, at a theory level I add: 0+2+3=5. All addition starts with zero, the additive identity. Likewise, if I multiply 2 and 3, it's: 1×2×3=5. This is trivial with integers, rationals, and reals, but it becomes more important with complex numbers. FWIW, I touched on this a little in my posts about complex numbers:

https://logosconcarne.substack.com/p/easy-complex-numbers

https://logosconcarne.substack.com/p/complex-number-forms

Those posts show how the complex numbers are necessary in math. It also appears they are necessary in quantum mechanics. What that means about reality is so far unknown.

With regard to an exponent of zero, that falls directly out of the basic axiom of exponents, that a⁴=a×a×a×a, AND what I wrote above about multiplication starting from one. See:

https://logosconcarne.substack.com/i/144512816/the-third-theorem

The oddball in the lot is 0⁰, which is considered undefined (like dividing by zero).

With regard to objects and structures and formations, I think it shows how language is malleable and context dependent. (A favorite: "Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.") It's a fine rabbit hole to explore, but my interests lie more in what ideas people are using words to express. Your example of "the process of erosion" -- as a conversational chapter title -- does only communicate the (well-defined) basic concept of erosion. As are many of the words discussed here, erosion is a big umbrella. As you say, it requires more context. That seems natural to me. Communication requires details.

Hmmm. Just sparked an idea about information theory and entropy... 🤔

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Tina Lee Forsee's avatar

Great post! I had no idea there was such a big difference between digital and analog. To me it’s all a mystery how music can be recorded at all. I do find audio waveforms intuitive at this point from recording my audiobook, certainly more so than that gobbledygook that’s supposed to be an Amy Winehouse song.

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